Comments on: Wagner Trade was All About the Money http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/ The Premier Blog about the Mets Minor League System Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:24:09 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Silver Surfer http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5632 Silver Surfer Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:24:39 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5632 Just based on his offensive numbers in the minors, Chris Carter has consistently proven he can hit and hit with power. He is overdue by at least 2 years to get a fair and legitimate shot at proving himself as a big league hitter. In his two brief stints at the major league level, he did a respectable job in only 13 games. He will turn 27 in September and will be 27 until close to the end of the 2010 season. Of course, since his defense is suspect he would naturally be a better fit in the American League but if he can prove himself in the Mets organization and impress the brass at Spring Training next season, he may be able to contribute to the parent club Mets in 2010. What more can be asked of this guy? Give him a chance. It looks like he's earned it since he's had continued success at the AAA level for many years. Mets fans are rightfully frustrated with the direction of their team and they should be but I don't think this was a such a bad move to acquire Carter. Only time will tell. Until then, try to be a little more optimistic if that is possible. The Mets will bounce back, I assure you. Maybe just not as quickly as some of the fans would prefer. There is some really good talent in the Mets farm system. Patience is a virtue, to quote the old cliche. I predict Carter will hit with power but won't hit for much average. After a couple of seasons with the Mets he will be shopped and shipped to the American League. As a Reds fan, this brings back shades of Russell Branyan, a below average fielder who hit 210 HR in the minors and now at the age of 33 he is having a career year for the Seattle Mariners with 31 HRs. Just based on his offensive numbers in the minors, Chris Carter has consistently proven he can hit and hit with power. He is overdue by at least 2 years to get a fair and legitimate shot at proving himself as a big league hitter. In his two brief stints at the major league level, he did a respectable job in only 13 games. He will turn 27 in September and will be 27 until close to the end of the 2010 season. Of course, since his defense is suspect he would naturally be a better fit in the American League but if he can prove himself in the Mets organization and impress the brass at Spring Training next season, he may be able to contribute to the parent club Mets in 2010. What more can be asked of this guy? Give him a chance. It looks like he’s earned it since he’s had continued success at the AAA level for many years. Mets fans are rightfully frustrated with the direction of their team and they should be but I don’t think this was a such a bad move to acquire Carter. Only time will tell. Until then, try to be a little more optimistic if that is possible. The Mets will bounce back, I assure you. Maybe just not as quickly as some of the fans would prefer. There is some really good talent in the Mets farm system. Patience is a virtue, to quote the old cliche.

I predict Carter will hit with power but won’t hit for much average. After a couple of seasons with the Mets he will be shopped and shipped to the American League. As a Reds fan, this brings back shades of Russell Branyan, a below average fielder who hit 210 HR in the minors and now at the age of 33 he is having a career year for the Seattle Mariners with 31 HRs.

]]> By: ravin108 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5628 ravin108 Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:12:16 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5628 The sense I get is that Wagner would not accept arbitration because he wants to close that badly. The fact that he might be willing to pitch for the Nats means he wants to close over getting money. And with the protected draft picks the Nats have, it would make sense for them to sign him for 3 or 4 million just to stabilize their pen for a year. What I want to ask is whether getting Carter is really much more that getting absolutely nothing should Wagner's health fail, which is highly unlikely with only a month left on a Mets team that would not overwork him. I don't know how you feel good about this trade. You can always use draft picks which helps ensure a constant flow of prospects in your system. But what about the other guy? Didn't we get 2 players? The sense I get is that Wagner would not accept arbitration because he wants to close that badly. The fact that he might be willing to pitch for the Nats means he wants to close over getting money. And with the protected draft picks the Nats have, it would make sense for them to sign him for 3 or 4 million just to stabilize their pen for a year.
What I want to ask is whether getting Carter is really much more that getting absolutely nothing should Wagner’s health fail, which is highly unlikely with only a month left on a Mets team that would not overwork him.
I don’t know how you feel good about this trade. You can always use draft picks which helps ensure a constant flow of prospects in your system.
But what about the other guy? Didn’t we get 2 players?

]]> By: dabendschein http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5620 dabendschein Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:39:16 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5620 I think the big question is whether the Mets could have gotten the draft picks out of the arbitration process. If yes, this is probably a bad deal. If not, it is a great deal. Let's consider this: even if Wagner pitches lights out, he is a 38-year-old relief pitcher. Given what we saw with Juan Cruz last year, does a team give up its first-rounder for Wagner? I think it is far more likely that a team with a protected first-rounder, or one who has already signed one Type A guy signs him, and then the Mets get a sandwich pick and a second rounder, which isn't that impressive. And that is a top scenario. Consider the other alternatives: Wagner pitches badly in September and hurts his value. Wagner gets injured. Or worst of all: Wagner decides he can't get $8 million anywhere else, and accepts arbitration, and the Mets can't afford to sign anyone else of consequence in the off season. The good thing here, is we can speculate now, but we get to see how the Wagner situation now plays out for the Red Sox. If they get the picks, we can all bad mouth Minaya. And if not, we all get to feel good about this trade. I think the big question is whether the Mets could have gotten the draft picks out of the arbitration process. If yes, this is probably a bad deal. If not, it is a great deal.

Let’s consider this: even if Wagner pitches lights out, he is a 38-year-old relief pitcher. Given what we saw with Juan Cruz last year, does a team give up its first-rounder for Wagner? I think it is far more likely that a team with a protected first-rounder, or one who has already signed one Type A guy signs him, and then the Mets get a sandwich pick and a second rounder, which isn’t that impressive.

And that is a top scenario. Consider the other alternatives: Wagner pitches badly in September and hurts his value. Wagner gets injured. Or worst of all: Wagner decides he can’t get $8 million anywhere else, and accepts arbitration, and the Mets can’t afford to sign anyone else of consequence in the off season.

The good thing here, is we can speculate now, but we get to see how the Wagner situation now plays out for the Red Sox. If they get the picks, we can all bad mouth Minaya. And if not, we all get to feel good about this trade.

]]> By: NateW http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5619 NateW Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:38:51 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5619 In that sense neither do you, neither of us have seen the medical info. Unusual pieces of bone in the elbow joint are a prime cause of the ligament damage. Yes they are more dangerous when attached (spur) than loose (chips) but the chips have to come from somewhere. In that sense neither do you, neither of us have seen the medical info.

Unusual pieces of bone in the elbow joint are a prime cause of the ligament damage. Yes they are more dangerous when attached (spur) than loose (chips) but the chips have to come from somewhere.

]]> By: big baby http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5613 big baby Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:27:58 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5613 you don't know what you're talking about. you don’t know what you’re talking about.

]]> By: NateW http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5611 NateW Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:21:20 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5611 semi different, but hopefully it works in Johan's favor... semi different, but hopefully it works in Johan’s favor…

]]> By: mark4212 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5610 mark4212 Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:51:28 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5610 Big Baby you played a terrific Devils advocate. And while I agree offensively he looks like he has talent and some pop. I also said over on the Metsblog that factors into his age could easily be his lack of defense causing him to be blocked from the majors. With Youkilis at 1st; Bay/Manny, and Drew and this year Baldeli blocking him on the Corner Outfield spots; also Ortiz blocking him from the DH spot. He has no other place to be played. Now i have never seen him play and maybe he does have potential to really help this team out in 2010. But being a 26 year old prospect chances are he's not going to. Personally i think that taking that 3.5 million and holding onto Wagner. Taking the probable 2 picks was worth the risk you put forward above. Those 2 picks would have added much needed top level talent to the Minors. Would they turn out to be stars, good chance no. But it's about as good a chance of this kid having a late career revival and becoming an All-Star. And you would have a 2-1 chance of that happening with the 2 picks. But I also know that the 1 pick that they would get from Wagner would probably be shipped off when the Big League team signs a Type A of their own, if that even happens because for a Big Market team 3.5 million in savings sickens me. You wasted that much easily on, Redding, Livan, Garcia, Sullivan, cora, tatis, etc, etc, etc. I am obviously just one frustrated fan, and when people in the know like Toby are pointing out how flawed this move and this thinking was it really validates my frustration. Big Baby you played a terrific Devils advocate.

And while I agree offensively he looks like he has talent and some pop. I also said over on the Metsblog that factors into his age could easily be his lack of defense causing him to be blocked from the majors. With Youkilis at 1st; Bay/Manny, and Drew and this year Baldeli blocking him on the Corner Outfield spots; also Ortiz blocking him from the DH spot. He has no other place to be played.

Now i have never seen him play and maybe he does have potential to really help this team out in 2010. But being a 26 year old prospect chances are he’s not going to.

Personally i think that taking that 3.5 million and holding onto Wagner. Taking the probable 2 picks was worth the risk you put forward above. Those 2 picks would have added much needed top level talent to the Minors. Would they turn out to be stars, good chance no. But it’s about as good a chance of this kid having a late career revival and becoming an All-Star. And you would have a 2-1 chance of that happening with the 2 picks.

But I also know that the 1 pick that they would get from Wagner would probably be shipped off when the Big League team signs a Type A of their own, if that even happens because for a Big Market team 3.5 million in savings sickens me. You wasted that much easily on, Redding, Livan, Garcia, Sullivan, cora, tatis, etc, etc, etc.

I am obviously just one frustrated fan, and when people in the know like Toby are pointing out how flawed this move and this thinking was it really validates my frustration.

]]> By: big baby http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5609 big baby Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:24:39 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5609 playing devil's advocate: 1.) Carter has been incredibly lucky this year in AAA. He has a great LD%, but an incredibly pedestrian BABIP. His luck adjusted slash line is .318/.376/.487, with a .324/.374/530/.904 split vs. righties and a .303/.382/.365/.747 vs. lefties. Those are pretty impressive numbers, though obviously his age comes into question. Is it out of the question for him to become Luke Scott? 2.) 3.5 million dollars is a lot of money to save. And Wagner is no sure thing. The Mets would have to spend 3.5 million dollars on the chance that Wagner would have no recurring injury problems, while also pitching so well to make it absolutely certain that a team out there would think it wise to sign 39 year old post-TJ Billy Wagner and sacrifice a first/second round draft pick. Not to mention the risks of Wagner accepting arbitration. playing devil’s advocate:

1.) Carter has been incredibly lucky this year in AAA. He has a great LD%, but an incredibly pedestrian BABIP. His luck adjusted slash line is .318/.376/.487, with a .324/.374/530/.904 split vs. righties and a .303/.382/.365/.747 vs. lefties.

Those are pretty impressive numbers, though obviously his age comes into question.

Is it out of the question for him to become Luke Scott?

2.) 3.5 million dollars is a lot of money to save. And Wagner is no sure thing. The Mets would have to spend 3.5 million dollars on the chance that Wagner would have no recurring injury problems, while also pitching so well to make it absolutely certain that a team out there would think it wise to sign 39 year old post-TJ Billy Wagner and sacrifice a first/second round draft pick. Not to mention the risks of Wagner accepting arbitration.

]]> By: big baby http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5608 big baby Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:17:26 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5608 putz had bone spurs. santana had bone chops completely different things. putz had bone spurs.

santana had bone chops

completely different things.

]]> By: mark4212 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/2009/08/26/wagner-trade-was-all-about-the-money/comment-page-1/#comment-5607 mark4212 Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:57:54 +0000 http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/?p=5565#comment-5607 I said the entire Front office has to be fired if they mucked up this Wagner situation.... And Guess what. They did, and They should indeed be fired. It wasn't that hard. Get top prospects or keep him and get 2 valuable draft picks. What do the Mets get. A player with an ok bat and no position, and what is said to be a player of no significance. 3 million dollars in terms of the payroll wasted this year on numerous injuries is a drop in the bucket. Then again in the draft the Mets wouldn't have selected the best talent available because they wouldn't be allowed to spend over-slot. So it wouldn't have mattered much anyways. Man a fan base can't get more frustrated, can it? I said the entire Front office has to be fired if they mucked up this Wagner situation…. And Guess what. They did, and They should indeed be fired. It wasn’t that hard. Get top prospects or keep him and get 2 valuable draft picks.

What do the Mets get. A player with an ok bat and no position, and what is said to be a player of no significance.

3 million dollars in terms of the payroll wasted this year on numerous injuries is a drop in the bucket.

Then again in the draft the Mets wouldn’t have selected the best talent available because they wouldn’t be allowed to spend over-slot. So it wouldn’t have mattered much anyways.

Man a fan base can’t get more frustrated, can it?

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